Jon and Mac consider: cookie memes, are Frog and Toad picture books?, mismatched best friends, font talk, "Tossed Salad and Scrambled Eggs," resting frog face, "a certain cruelty in the relationship"
Luca and I were introduced to Frog and Toad at the Mac’s Book Club Show. For us, they are Kikker en Pad, and it was the first book I read in Dutch, with a lot of Luca’s help. I just wanted to thank you both for keeping the conversation about excellent books alive and helping some of us discover them for the first time!
It’s interesting - and I never noticed this before - but in that spread where Toad wakes up, Lobel has made them the same size, though it’s because Toad is standing on the bed (but unselfconsciously). It has to be an intentional choice (you could almost get a ruler out and check to see if they’re level!) but is it communicating something to the child reader about their own value in these unbalanced relationships, or something about Toad’s psyche in that moment, or am I overreaching, or…?
Firstly, you may be interested to know that in my edition of this book - British, from 1983 - the “Shut up!” line has been amended to “Be quiet!” In either case, Toad is screaming.
Second, I don’t think I can see Frog as being quite so ambivalent about the relationship as you suggest, because one of the first F&T stories I read was ‘Alone’ (the last one in Days with Frog and Toad). But you’ve now shown me that stories like these two - maybe all of them? - are very subtly from Toad’s perspective, which is a perspective that must allow for ambiguity in how Frog really feels. And perhaps that’s why they really piercingly articulate the experience of most gay people at some point
I think this is a perfect reading of Toad’s psyche, and his sense of Frog’s relative glorious ease in the world. But I quarrel a bit with the reading of Frog himself - not Frog as Toad sees him, but Frog as Lobel actually writes him, unfiltered through Toad’s subconscious. I would submit as my First and Only Exhibit the story “Spring,” when Frog changes Toad’s calendar to make him come out of hibernation - and he says the exact thing you point to Toad saying here: ““But Toad,” said Frog, “I will be lonely until then.”” I will be lonely! And he would be. Maybe Toad just doesn’t hear him, because he’s telling Frog to go away so he can keep sleeping and dreaming neurotic dreams :)
FWIW, my San Francisco Public Library branch is housing all FROG & TOADs in the early reader section. But also FWIW, I first went looking for them in the PB section and was very confused when there was nothing by Lobel there...
I have a cassette tape of Ed Asner reading Frog and Toad Together and Frog and Toad All Year, and I love it because it's like they said, "who is an actor who will not convey 'cozy' immediately?" They could have chosen, like, Wilford Brimley, but Ed Asner has so much seriousness (and grumpiness). (I also have a cassette of Arnold Lobel reading Bedtime for Frances (with Alice Playten) which is ALSO a perfect voice actor for the book. He's good at it!)
This was fun to read because I LOVE Frog and Toad... I even (illegally ) once made a Tshirt out of a color copy of a bike-riding illustration (I was working at Kinko's) and omg! I never got so many reactions from random people, wearing that Tshirt - every kind of person saw it and gasped - "Oh! it's...it's... those friends, Frog, and Toad...I loved them!!"
I think when you were talking about their "flawed" friendship - maybe that's why kids love them because the little tensions, etc are real - when storybook friends are always kind and well-mannered and never mean, it feels preachy and saccharine to kids... or if there is meanness, it must be apologized for, etc - makes a kid feel that's how they SHOULD be behaving though as you point out, many of our friendships as little kids are NOT perfect, there are imbalances of power, little passive-aggressive behaviors... and sometimes that's just the way it is. It's not to the point of nasty or abusive...I would NOT call it cruel...for example as a kid I was usually the passive one and sometimes liked being around a diva, -she barely acknowledged me but I liked the excitement she generated - just an example, but I think kids relate to the real-ness of these guys , and there's an edge of bickering to their conversations sometimes and I like that! and you know they always come back to each other and clearly its somehow a mutual friendship even with those imbalances, they need each other, and the drawings are just so damn PERFECT. The small books, small tidy illustrations, sort of go with the small creatures in their tidy little houses, just right.
THanks guys, not everyone understands how we feel about our picture books and what fun it is dissecting every page!
(and I greatly enjoyed the little "insider" comments about Ursula! )
I feel you about so many things here, but esp. the tone of Frog being devastating in that scene where Toad wakes up from his nightmare. I think it's the addition of "Of course" to "Of course it is me" that really nails that dynamic. It's that little exasperation setting the tone for everything that follows, one of (at a minimum) fatigue from providing comfort, an addition that emphasizes Frog's Spock-like superiority over Toad's ridiculousness, particularly if one is checking on a *friend* in their own house, and finds them waking in a frantic state. (I'm not saying it's unearned--Toad can be a lot, in the way that kids are often a lot...I'm just saying, it didn't need to be said and yet...Lobel ensured it was.)
Sorry to self-reply! The writer in me just can't stop thinking about "Of course it is me." I think it also sets up an implied question: "Who else would it be?" and an implied answer: "No one." So...whew. A lot to unpack.
Until today, I had never read any Frog and Toad! It is just one of those things that I missed, and admitting it is a little scary (especially here, of all places).
Not knowing these stories was a secret that grew in importance over the years. The guilt became a barrier to entry. The longer I didn’t know them, the stronger I felt that enjoying Frog and Toad was something I did not “deserve.”
That’s the Toad talking.
Of course I loved this story. And I loved reading it for the first time with your commentary because you provided what I felt I lacked (personal history with the characters). So thank you.
Your deep dive makes me think about how picture book-making is basically just communicating, which makes me think about how dang hard communicating is.
It’s so rare to be on the same page as someone else (if you’ll allow it). Most of the time, things that are very meaningful to one person are relatively meaningless to another (read: dreams, or the secret shame of not reading Frog and Toad). Seeing these moments of dissonance depicted in Frog and Toad’s relationship is radical! It is real life.
I've always read frog and toad as being about marriage as much as friendship. I mean, kids know that real life friends don't see each other last thing before they go to sleep and first thing when they wake up, every day. Parents do. The commitment between these two anurans is fixed and non negotiable. When frog says "I always do ", he doesn't have to say why, and Toad doesn't have to wonder.
I agree that there is something deeply sad and unresolved in this beautiful story. But this is offset by the nature of the relationship. Kids friendships tend to be passionate and fraught, far more so than what most kids see between their parents. By surfacing the pain and yearning that is only implicit in the rest of the stories, this may help kids understand their parents' marriage with more empathy and imagination.
I often puzzle over the line between a picture book and a beginning reader. Many books seem to me to function as both. Also books like Frog and Toad that we've always considered beginning readers can seem kind of ambitious for a lot of children who are still trying to figure out how to read English. I think of George and Martha much the same way.
Corey Tabor's work is an interesting contemporary example--some of his books come in a traditionally beginning reader trim size, and so we put them in the beginning reader section. Others of his books come in a picture book trim size, and so we put them in the picture book section. All of them seem to function well both as picture books and beginning readers, wherever we shelve them. I think the Shapes series you two have done kind of function as beginning readers, too, depending on the kid and the level, although they're also inarguably picture books.
I read Reading in the Brain by Stanislas Dehaene to try to help myself parse out what might be the beginning reader half of this equation, other than, say, sticking exclusively with books like the Bob Books series--what I think of as aggressively leveled readers--and Dehaene's book was both fascinating and inscrutable. I keep thinking I need to reread it to absorb more of it. (The tl;dr from my first reading: Brains! A lot's going on in there!)
At the moment, I think these two formats rest on a continuum that's hard to categorize.
Let's not even get into what's going on with graphic novels for kids right now, that are just kind of picture book beginning reader comics (for instance, the very recent Cabin Head and Tree Head by Scott Campbell). These books are wonderful, but if you're trying to categorize them, GOOD LUCK. Not that we have to really categorize anything (well, we have to put them in some kind of order in the library's children's room, at least temporarily), but when I'm talking to teachers and parents and recommending books, sometimes folks want books that check particular category boxes. Or they just want the Bob Books and nothing else, which can be depressing.
This is one of my favorite stories, because it makes me think so much. And I’ve often wondered if it is a reflection of Lobel’s fear of success at the time. Who knows, but I am grateful for it because the fear of failure is way easier to talk about and understand. But the fear of success is so hard to describe, and I see it perfectly reflected in this story (among other things too).
One hope that I have is that the Coziness Industrial Complex will be a bit like stealth bombing, and that lots and lots of unsuspecting parents who otherwise wouldn’t go for stories with real depth and complexity will keep these things alive.
Luca and I were introduced to Frog and Toad at the Mac’s Book Club Show. For us, they are Kikker en Pad, and it was the first book I read in Dutch, with a lot of Luca’s help. I just wanted to thank you both for keeping the conversation about excellent books alive and helping some of us discover them for the first time!
It’s interesting - and I never noticed this before - but in that spread where Toad wakes up, Lobel has made them the same size, though it’s because Toad is standing on the bed (but unselfconsciously). It has to be an intentional choice (you could almost get a ruler out and check to see if they’re level!) but is it communicating something to the child reader about their own value in these unbalanced relationships, or something about Toad’s psyche in that moment, or am I overreaching, or…?
Two things:
Firstly, you may be interested to know that in my edition of this book - British, from 1983 - the “Shut up!” line has been amended to “Be quiet!” In either case, Toad is screaming.
Second, I don’t think I can see Frog as being quite so ambivalent about the relationship as you suggest, because one of the first F&T stories I read was ‘Alone’ (the last one in Days with Frog and Toad). But you’ve now shown me that stories like these two - maybe all of them? - are very subtly from Toad’s perspective, which is a perspective that must allow for ambiguity in how Frog really feels. And perhaps that’s why they really piercingly articulate the experience of most gay people at some point
Loved this.
I think this is a perfect reading of Toad’s psyche, and his sense of Frog’s relative glorious ease in the world. But I quarrel a bit with the reading of Frog himself - not Frog as Toad sees him, but Frog as Lobel actually writes him, unfiltered through Toad’s subconscious. I would submit as my First and Only Exhibit the story “Spring,” when Frog changes Toad’s calendar to make him come out of hibernation - and he says the exact thing you point to Toad saying here: ““But Toad,” said Frog, “I will be lonely until then.”” I will be lonely! And he would be. Maybe Toad just doesn’t hear him, because he’s telling Frog to go away so he can keep sleeping and dreaming neurotic dreams :)
FWIW, my San Francisco Public Library branch is housing all FROG & TOADs in the early reader section. But also FWIW, I first went looking for them in the PB section and was very confused when there was nothing by Lobel there...
I have a cassette tape of Ed Asner reading Frog and Toad Together and Frog and Toad All Year, and I love it because it's like they said, "who is an actor who will not convey 'cozy' immediately?" They could have chosen, like, Wilford Brimley, but Ed Asner has so much seriousness (and grumpiness). (I also have a cassette of Arnold Lobel reading Bedtime for Frances (with Alice Playten) which is ALSO a perfect voice actor for the book. He's good at it!)
This was great. And okay, you’re right.
This was fun to read because I LOVE Frog and Toad... I even (illegally ) once made a Tshirt out of a color copy of a bike-riding illustration (I was working at Kinko's) and omg! I never got so many reactions from random people, wearing that Tshirt - every kind of person saw it and gasped - "Oh! it's...it's... those friends, Frog, and Toad...I loved them!!"
I think when you were talking about their "flawed" friendship - maybe that's why kids love them because the little tensions, etc are real - when storybook friends are always kind and well-mannered and never mean, it feels preachy and saccharine to kids... or if there is meanness, it must be apologized for, etc - makes a kid feel that's how they SHOULD be behaving though as you point out, many of our friendships as little kids are NOT perfect, there are imbalances of power, little passive-aggressive behaviors... and sometimes that's just the way it is. It's not to the point of nasty or abusive...I would NOT call it cruel...for example as a kid I was usually the passive one and sometimes liked being around a diva, -she barely acknowledged me but I liked the excitement she generated - just an example, but I think kids relate to the real-ness of these guys , and there's an edge of bickering to their conversations sometimes and I like that! and you know they always come back to each other and clearly its somehow a mutual friendship even with those imbalances, they need each other, and the drawings are just so damn PERFECT. The small books, small tidy illustrations, sort of go with the small creatures in their tidy little houses, just right.
THanks guys, not everyone understands how we feel about our picture books and what fun it is dissecting every page!
(and I greatly enjoyed the little "insider" comments about Ursula! )
Please do the rest of the series, especially the bathing suit one!
I feel you about so many things here, but esp. the tone of Frog being devastating in that scene where Toad wakes up from his nightmare. I think it's the addition of "Of course" to "Of course it is me" that really nails that dynamic. It's that little exasperation setting the tone for everything that follows, one of (at a minimum) fatigue from providing comfort, an addition that emphasizes Frog's Spock-like superiority over Toad's ridiculousness, particularly if one is checking on a *friend* in their own house, and finds them waking in a frantic state. (I'm not saying it's unearned--Toad can be a lot, in the way that kids are often a lot...I'm just saying, it didn't need to be said and yet...Lobel ensured it was.)
Sorry to self-reply! The writer in me just can't stop thinking about "Of course it is me." I think it also sets up an implied question: "Who else would it be?" and an implied answer: "No one." So...whew. A lot to unpack.
Until today, I had never read any Frog and Toad! It is just one of those things that I missed, and admitting it is a little scary (especially here, of all places).
Not knowing these stories was a secret that grew in importance over the years. The guilt became a barrier to entry. The longer I didn’t know them, the stronger I felt that enjoying Frog and Toad was something I did not “deserve.”
That’s the Toad talking.
Of course I loved this story. And I loved reading it for the first time with your commentary because you provided what I felt I lacked (personal history with the characters). So thank you.
Your deep dive makes me think about how picture book-making is basically just communicating, which makes me think about how dang hard communicating is.
It’s so rare to be on the same page as someone else (if you’ll allow it). Most of the time, things that are very meaningful to one person are relatively meaningless to another (read: dreams, or the secret shame of not reading Frog and Toad). Seeing these moments of dissonance depicted in Frog and Toad’s relationship is radical! It is real life.
Thank you, Mac & Jon!
I love this post, and the comments.
I've always read frog and toad as being about marriage as much as friendship. I mean, kids know that real life friends don't see each other last thing before they go to sleep and first thing when they wake up, every day. Parents do. The commitment between these two anurans is fixed and non negotiable. When frog says "I always do ", he doesn't have to say why, and Toad doesn't have to wonder.
I agree that there is something deeply sad and unresolved in this beautiful story. But this is offset by the nature of the relationship. Kids friendships tend to be passionate and fraught, far more so than what most kids see between their parents. By surfacing the pain and yearning that is only implicit in the rest of the stories, this may help kids understand their parents' marriage with more empathy and imagination.
I often puzzle over the line between a picture book and a beginning reader. Many books seem to me to function as both. Also books like Frog and Toad that we've always considered beginning readers can seem kind of ambitious for a lot of children who are still trying to figure out how to read English. I think of George and Martha much the same way.
Corey Tabor's work is an interesting contemporary example--some of his books come in a traditionally beginning reader trim size, and so we put them in the beginning reader section. Others of his books come in a picture book trim size, and so we put them in the picture book section. All of them seem to function well both as picture books and beginning readers, wherever we shelve them. I think the Shapes series you two have done kind of function as beginning readers, too, depending on the kid and the level, although they're also inarguably picture books.
I read Reading in the Brain by Stanislas Dehaene to try to help myself parse out what might be the beginning reader half of this equation, other than, say, sticking exclusively with books like the Bob Books series--what I think of as aggressively leveled readers--and Dehaene's book was both fascinating and inscrutable. I keep thinking I need to reread it to absorb more of it. (The tl;dr from my first reading: Brains! A lot's going on in there!)
At the moment, I think these two formats rest on a continuum that's hard to categorize.
Let's not even get into what's going on with graphic novels for kids right now, that are just kind of picture book beginning reader comics (for instance, the very recent Cabin Head and Tree Head by Scott Campbell). These books are wonderful, but if you're trying to categorize them, GOOD LUCK. Not that we have to really categorize anything (well, we have to put them in some kind of order in the library's children's room, at least temporarily), but when I'm talking to teachers and parents and recommending books, sometimes folks want books that check particular category boxes. Or they just want the Bob Books and nothing else, which can be depressing.
This is one of my favorite stories, because it makes me think so much. And I’ve often wondered if it is a reflection of Lobel’s fear of success at the time. Who knows, but I am grateful for it because the fear of failure is way easier to talk about and understand. But the fear of success is so hard to describe, and I see it perfectly reflected in this story (among other things too).
I cried reading this ngl 😭
One hope that I have is that the Coziness Industrial Complex will be a bit like stealth bombing, and that lots and lots of unsuspecting parents who otherwise wouldn’t go for stories with real depth and complexity will keep these things alive.